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Retired NBME 21 Answers

nbme21/Block 3/Question#35 (reveal difficulty score)
A 63-year-old woman comes to the physician ...
Increased resting cardiac output ๐Ÿ” / ๐Ÿ“บ / ๐ŸŒณ / ๐Ÿ“–
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 +20  upvote downvote
submitted by โˆ—cellgamesgojan(43)
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AV Fistulas re-rout blood from the arterial system to the venous system, by-passing the Arterioles = Increase PL ---> INCREASE VR. All in all = Increase CO.

According to UWorld, the arterioles are a major source of resistance ... so bypassing the arterioles results in a decrease in Total Peripheral Resistance ... causing an increase in the rate and volume of blood returning to the heart. I am pretty sure there is more to the physiology behind this, but I hope this explained a little.

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big92  "Immediately following creation, arteriovenous fistula (AVF) is associated with an increase in cardiac output (CO), achieved predominantly through a reduction in systemic vascular resistance, increased myocardial contractility, and an increase in stroke volume (SV) and heart rate. Over the following week, circulating blood volume increases in conjunction with increases in atrial and brain natriuretic peptides. These alterations are associated with early increases in left ventricular (LV) filling pressure with the potential for resultant impact on atrial and ventricular chamber dimensions and function." (PMID: 25258554) There's also another study by Epstein from the 1950s looking at the effects of AVF's effect on CO in men (PMID: 13052718). Apparently, the increase in resting CO is a big problem because it can lead to high-output cardiac failure (LVH). +32
hungrybox  Jesus big92 you went in on the research lmao u must be MSTP +6
temmy  big92 you are right. that is why pagets disease pagets have high output cardiac failure because of the av shunts. +5
kevin  what is "increase PL" +6
jhan17  According to wiki "When an arteriovenous fistula is formed involving a major artery like the abdominal aorta, it can lead to a large decrease in peripheral resistance because it by pass arteriole (where major BP is formed) . This lowered peripheral resistance causes the heart to increase resting cardiac output to maintain proper blood flow to all tissues." +



 +6  upvote downvote
submitted by โˆ—azibird(279)
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I don't feel like any of these comments have fully addressed why the patient currently has increased resting CO and NOT decreased SV. Here is how a friend of mine explained it:

MAP (at resting HR) = 2/3 DBP + 1/3 SBP = 77 mmHg in this patient, which is lower than normal (93 mmHg if you use 120/80). So MAP is decreased and the kidneys/other organs aren't getting the perfusion they need, leading to RAAS activation and SOB/edema. MAP = CO ร— TPR, so this could be due to low CO relative to TPR (what we usually expect) or low TPR relative to CO. This patient's large AV fistula has dropped her TPR very low, which means her CO must have been very high for the past 15 years to compensate (high output heart failure. She has only 5 days of symptoms, which means she is early on in her HF. Since she had such a high CO to begin with, her drop in SV this early on would still leave here with an INCREASED SV compared to a normal patient. Unless her pulse is super high, her heart must be pumping a massive stroke volume to maintain a normal systolic blood pressure with such a low TPR (MAP = SV x HR x TPR). Eventually, her SV may decrease to be below normal, but not so early on.

For completeness: Not decreased arterial O2 sat because blood is flowing from artery to vein, not the other way around. Not decreased mixed venous O2 sat because arterial blood is flooding the subclavian vein right before mixed O2 sat would be measured. Not increased SVR because of the large AV fistula.

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 +2  upvote downvote
submitted by โˆ—the260guy(18)
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But here's my problem with this question: it says that she has a 5 day history of SOB and swollen legs. So obviously the heart is failing. I picked Decreased Stroke Volume for that reason.

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nwinkelmann  AV fistulas are one cause of high-output cardiac failure. This person presents with heart failure, but it is due to chronically increased resting CO. +2
lukin4answer  @nwinkelmann yes thats right, he has failing heart. but question is asking what is the finding of this patient, I understand the cause is Fistula causing high output failure, but they didn't ask the reason of his HF, they are asking the finding. I choose decrease Stroke VOlume :/ +
happyhib_  This was my logic and got to decreased stroke volume as well; they arent asking what caused his HF or anything it says what is the most likley finding in this patient. If his heart is failing due to LVH from consistent increased CO wouldnt he AT THIS VERY MOMENT WITH his heart failing have decreased stroke volume?.. +



 +2  upvote downvote
submitted by โˆ—usmleuser007(464)
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CO is increased with 1) decreased afterload 2) increased preload 3) Increased contractility

An ateriovenous fistula creates an alternative route for atrial blood into the venous circulation w/o going past the arterioles (the major cause of resistance). Thus, by doing so the TPR (afterload) decreases and the CO is increased.

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 +1  upvote downvote
submitted by โˆ—uslme123(86)
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AVF's = increased cardiac output. BUT this isn't new for this person? I view this as a heart that has finally begun to fail -- decreased effective circulatory volume --> increased SVR.

But i guess you can't have B before A -- whatever --\

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happyhib_  his bp was something like 130/50; with diastolic around 50 I figured he couldnt have increased SVR because his diastolic would be higher? +2
trazobone  I had this same reasoning I completely glossed over the BP ๐Ÿคฆ๐Ÿปโ€โ™€๏ธ +



 +1  upvote downvote
submitted by nuts4med(8)
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Anyone have an idea why the decreased arterial O2 saturation is incorrect? Assuming she has pulm edema since she has LE edema, wouldn't a lower O2 sat be expected too?

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haliburton  I believe there would be no decrease in O2 saturation because oxygenated blood (high pressure) is shunted into deoxygenated circuit. As long as the lungs can keep up, this should increase venous oxygenation on average. +7
hungrybox  ty both of you for this, was wondering the same thing +
coxsack  O2 sat wonโ€™t change b/c youโ€™re not adding deoxygenated blood to the arterial side. Youโ€™re just taking arterial blood and putting it into venous blood. Same reason why L->R cardiac shunts donโ€™t decrease O2 sat (while in contrast, a R->L shunt would). +5
hungrybox  just realized: the high pressure of the arterial system keeps out low-pressure venous blood in an AV fistula (probably obvious to most ppl but it was a eureka moment for me lol) +2
chandlerbas  ya you wont have decreased arterial O2 sat because oxygenation of blood is perfusion limited (FA19 --654) therefore oxygenation of the blood happens within the first .3seconds of entering the pulmonary capillary that you could even handle having more deoxygenated blood enter +



 +0  upvote downvote
submitted by โˆ—step1soon(51)
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Heart failure: This is the most serious complication of large arteriovenous fistulas. Since your blood flows more quickly through an arteriovenous fistula than it would if your blood flowed through a normal course of arteries, capillaries and veins, your heart pumps harder to compensate for the drop in blood pressure (called high-output heart failure). Over time, the increased intensity of your heart's pumping can weaken your heart muscle, leading to heart failure.

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